29 April 2024, PHRF-NB Meeting Minutes

April 2024

Date:          Monday, Apr. 29, 2024
Time:         1830
Location:   Zoom

  1. Call to Order:
  2. Roll Call: Don Kern, Commodore; Will Museler, Rating Chairman; Roy Guay, Treasurer; Bob Horton, Secretary; Ec Helme, Committee Member; Moose McClintock, Committee Member; Kathy Rotsky, PHRF-NB Administrator
    1. Approval Meeting Minutes: March 2024 minute’s motion voted to be approved and seconded and passed by members present.
  3. Appeal: None
  4. New Base Ratings Needed
    1. 2024 Certificate17954 – Open 30, Red Dawn, Mike Piper owner. This is the boat originally called and rated as Overproof. The current application lists the mast as aluminum while it is believed to be carbon, there is also question as to whether the water ballast number is correct. Moose will check the mast and Kathy will verify the water ballast number. The owner also has applied for a rating with water ballast. The rating will be held until all questions are answered.
    2. 2024 Certificate17585Alerion Express 28-1, Leucothea, Karl Knauss owner. After review of when these boats were built and by which builder and the weight it was agreed by the members present that the 28-1 model would be assigned a base of 159.
    3. 2024 Certificate17949 – Alerion Express 28-2, Moorea, Robert Davignon owner. Again after review of when these boats were built and by which builder and the weight it was agreed by the members present that the 28-2 model would be assigned a base of 165.
    4. 2024 Certificate17930 – Alerion Express 38-2, Osprey, Peter Rugg owner. This model which is a sloop was compared to the yawl and basic dimensions that were the same and those that are different were noted. The current base for the yawl in PHRF-NB is 129 but is being questioned. The mainsail measurements are incomplete and Kathy will obtain these from the owner. A base of 125 was agreed to by the members present if the mainsail numbers are meet existing standards.
    5. 2024 Certificate17988 – Tartan 101, Tomfoolery, Chris Boutilier owner. This boat was compared to the C&C 101 Beneteau 36.7 which carries a YRA base of 84, NE-PHRF which has a base of 78 and NCPHRF with a base of 87. After discussion by the members present it was agreed that a base of 81 with all appropriate adjustments be assigned.
    6. 2024 Certificate18006 – Sou’wester 30, Great Eagle, John Argitis owner. It was noted that this model is a fiberglass boat. It was compared to a Cape Dory 30 with a base of 207. Roy’s regression comes out to 204. It was agreed by the members present to assign a base of 207.
    7. 2024 Certificate18058 – Schock Harbor 20, Ellla Bella, Charles Payne owner. This boat should be listed as a Harbor 20 which we already have a base for. It was agreed by the members present to assign the standard base of 225 to this boat.
    8. 2024 Certificate XXXXX – Hanse 455, Alegria III, Chip Baker owner. This boat has a NEPHRF base of 78. It was compared to the Beneteau 36.7 and Roy’s regression program came up with 67. After a long discussion it was agreed to assign a base of 84 by the members present.
    9. 2024 Certificate XXXXX – JS9000, Slim Shady, Moose McClintock owner. This is a highly modified JS9000. It was compared to the Melges 24, Italia 99.8, J92S and C&C 30. It was agreed by the members present that the modifications should identify this boat as a custom. After a long discussion and review of the modifications to the boat the members present voted to assign a base of 87 and review the boat after it had sailed and competed for one month.
    10. 2023 Certificate 18024 – Columbia/ Sabre, Starling, Evan Idle, Modifications made, adjustments in question. It was agreed by the members present to ask Matt Smith to review the changes and determine if any of the changes individually or combined require an adjustment.
  5. Ratings Review: Table of Boats to be Reviewed
      1. 2023 Certificate 17648 – MOODY 45DS, Liberty, base changed 2023, no action required.
      2. 2023 Certificate 17649 – VALIANT 50, Miss Red, base changed 2023, no action required.
      3. 2023 Certificate 17669 – BOTIN 45. Azulito, base changed 2023, no action required.
      4. 2023 Certificate 17675 – BENETEAU 35s5 TM. Breathless, base changed 2023, no action required.
      5. 2023 Certificate 17685 – BENETEAU FIRST 36.7, Five East, base changed 2023, no action required.
      6. 2023 Certificate 17688 – TARTAN 4300 SD, Grace, base changed 2023, no action required.
      7. 2023 Certificate 17696 – JUDEL/VROLIJK HH 42, Jigs Up, base changed 2023, no action required.
      8. 2023 Certificate 17736 – SWEDEN 41 TM, Gunga Din, base changed 2023, no action required.
      9. 2023 Certificate 17768 – DEHLER 30, Turbofish, base changed 2023, no action required.
      10. 2023 Certificate 17954 – Open 30, Red Dawn, Mike Piper, Boat under discussion, see above.
      11. 2023 Certificate 17955 – Open 30 WB, Red Dawn, Mike Piper, Boat with water ballast under discussion see above.
  6. Old Business:
      1. Status of updates to web page. No update
  7. New Business:
      1. YRALIS technology for managing PHRF certificates, discussion to accept or not accept offer. Question tabled.
      2. PHRF NZ system to evaluate results question tabled.
      3. Meeting May 20th – Zoom
  8. Adjournment: 8:48pm


Alerion Express 28


Alerion Express 28

From: Bob S and Ellen B <schwartz@pipeline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2024 9:45 AM
To: Kathy Rotsky <phrfadmin@phrf-nb.org>
Subject: Technology for managing PHRF certificates

Hi Kathy,

Peter Becker provided me with your contact information.

I am a trustee on the board of the YRALIS (Yacht Racing Association of the Long Island Sound)..

Similar to your organization, we issue PHRF certificates for our region of the US. YRALIS typically handles the renewal and new issuance of about 800 PHRF certificates per season. In order to do this efficiently we have developed a website that supports the workflow for this process. We have a used a software development company to assist us in this endeavor.  As we are in our fifth season using this web site technology it has reached a level of maturity and functional capability to handle the workflow aspects of this process. Automated functions include double handed certifactes (along side fully crewed), automated renewals, multiple boats per owner, transfer certificate support for sold boats, transparent reporting for members to easily see the complete population of certificates always up-to-date with underlying measurement data. and other functions to make the paperwork much more efficient.

We are reaching out to you to see if there is interest in taking advantage of this technology which greatly reduces the need for spread sheets and email based workflow. In exchange for using our technology we would charge a modest fee for which the amount has yet to be determined but would probably be based on the number of certificates you issue. We would offer this service on a turnkey basis. We would handle all of the resources needed to make the  web site work  such as servers, networking, backups, etc.

For us this is very preliminary and we are mostly trying to determine if there is interest from other PHRF committees for this service. We would provide it so that your committee has complete control over your local ratings.

We would love to hear back from you with any feedback so we can decide whether to move forward with broadening our services to support.

Bob Schwartz
Trustee, YRALIS




From PHRF NZ regarding how they operate, tomill

Hi William,

This is what the committee has come back with for you.

Hello William,

Hopefully the below helps a little with your questions.

We may have been a bit unclear on our website with respect to the IRC measurement reference.  The rule isn’t intended to place limits on sails, only that measurement rules as defined in the IRC rules are those that should be applied for measurement for NZ PHRF.  Our understanding is the ORc and IRC now use the same measurement processes so anybody familiar with either measurement process need not make any adjustments for our PHRF system.

To calculate a US PHRF given NZ PHRf, below we think yields the closest results :

(650 – (PHRF * 1.286 * 557)) / (PHRF * 1.286)

Where PHRF is the NZ PHRF, a Farr 30 class spec would be 0.825 by way of example.

New Zealand’s PHRF has significant differences to PHRF used in the United States.  We have a base PHRF and a main (or performance) PHRF, each broken down further into short handed, passage (point to point or races over approx 25nm) and inshore (all other racing).  The main PHRF is calculated from the base PHRF but incorporates results information for that boat.  The performance affect can change the PHRF from the base up or down to a maximum of 1.8% of the base.  Using an illustration which may be easier, if a boat has a base PHRF of 0.8, has done five races in the last year sailing overall to a PHRF of 0.75, we’d likely place her PHRF at 0.786 being her base minus the 1.8% that we let her results influence her PHRF.

If gets a deal more complex but the basic concept is a base PHRF being what we believe the design is capable of sailing to and a small component being actual results influence.

In setting the base PHRF, it is a judgement call from the PHRF committee using any information we can get.  That can include overseas handicaps and ratings such is IRC, ORC, the various U.S. PHRF handicaps etc, the groups own observations of the boats, actual results where we think we have a reasonable idea of the quality of the crew racing or measurement comparison with other boats in NZ PHRF.  Mostly we’re working with custom designs and modified class boats so exactly what we use can be very dependent on what information we have.  For common modifications, we have various approaches dependent on the exact modification, some we’re happy with, some are still a work in progress.  We can detail that further but haven’t worried at this stage as it’s a whole document in and of itself and it’s very much a guideline document for the committee, not a set in stone type thing for publication.

We hope this has been of some assistance, please let’s know if we can help further.

Kind regards
PHRF Committee